Universal Basic Income

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Deleted member 1030

With the announcement, this week, of the trial of driver-less lorries, it seems that jobs being replaced by technological advances continues apace. We are heading towards a future where the work is done by drones and AI.
With this in mind, is it time to start talking about Universal Basic Income (UBI)? This is a system whereby every citizen in the country is given an unconditional amount of money, regardless of any other income. This would be enough to live on, on its own.
The arguments for it range from freedom of choice to the saving of money (UBI would replace all welfare benefits programmes, saving administration and legal costs). Arguments against include the disincentive to work, initial costs and tax-inequality.

What do you think?
 
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DiamondJoe

DiamondJoe

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DiamondJoe said:
This went down like a fart in a spacesuit
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Which is kind of a metaphor for the whole project.

The basic issues with UBI are a) cost (it would be expensive to enact) and b) that people have been programmed to think economically inactive people are undeserving.

Other than that, bring it on.

Any news from the Finnish experiment?
 
D

Deleted member 1030

DiamondJoe said:
a) cost (it would be expensive to enact)
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Yes, but I presume that - eventually - that cost would be recouped by the savings.
DiamondJoe said:
b) that people have been programmed to think economically inactive people are undeserving.
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This is what I think the biggest stumbling block is. Doesn't necessarily make it a non-starter, though. Many strange ideas, such as votes for women or emancipation of the slaves, started off as wildly anti-public opinion.

I've not really kept up with the Finnish project. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
 
DiamondJoe

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meandlis said:
I've not really kept up with the Finnish project. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
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Right, so. The Finnish experiment has seen 2000 unemployed participants receive a basic minimum wage of E560 p/mth in lieu of all other benefits, strings-free, for two years.

If the participants get a job or spend their days eating pot noodles whilst watching telly, they will get the wage regardless.

It's not UBI as I understand it... it's an alternative to unemployment benefit.

?
 
T

The_Bibas

meandlis said:
With the announcement, this week, of the trial of driver-less lorries, it seems that jobs being replaced by technological advances continues apace. We are heading towards a future where the work is done by drones and AI.
With this in mind, is it time to start talking about Universal Basic Income (UBI)? This is a system whereby every citizen in the country is given an unconditional amount of money, regardless of any other income. This would be enough to live on, on its own.
The arguments for it range from freedom of choice to the saving of money (UBI would replace all welfare benefits programmes, saving administration and legal costs). Arguments against include the disincentive to work, initial costs and tax-inequality.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
It's inevitable...
However unlikely to happen in my lifetime as is the announcement that we are not alone in the universe... Therefore... I don't care as I have zero influence on the outcome..
XxxBibaxxX
 
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DiamondJoe

DiamondJoe

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The_Bibas said:
It's inevitable...
However unlikely to happen in my lifetime as is the announcement that we are not alone in the universe... Therefore... I don't care as I have zero influence on the outcome..
XxxBibaxxX
Click to expand...
You might say the same about global warming...?
 
N

No longer with us

meandlis said:
With the announcement, this week, of the trial of driver-less lorries, it seems that jobs being replaced by technological advances continues apace. We are heading towards a future where the work is done by drones and AI.
With this in mind, is it time to start talking about Universal Basic Income (UBI)? This is a system whereby every citizen in the country is given an unconditional amount of money, regardless of any other income. This would be enough to live on, on its own.
The arguments for it range from freedom of choice to the saving of money (UBI would replace all welfare benefits programmes, saving administration and legal costs). Arguments against include the disincentive to work, initial costs and tax-inequality.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I used to be a fan of UBI; I'm less supportive of it since I did some reading on it. Though, this is one where I think there are strong arguments on both sides, and no conclusive ones on either.

My main problem is what happens to those who 'need' additional income? For example, if everyone gets £x as a basic minimum income, then does that mean that two people who live in identical homes, but one's severely disabled and requires care/equipment... do they get the same? If you say, no, the second should get an additional amount.. then that's no longer Universal Basic Income.

What about geographical differences? Does someone living in Glasgow where rents are relatively cheaper get the same as someone living in North London?

How about local government community charges, which are different from city to city?

There are similar questions, all of which come down to: unless everyone has the same basic things in their lives (rent, food costs, taxes) either everyone gets the same basic minimum and SOME people get 'more' for nothing, OR some people get additional means tested benefits... which is what we (in theory) have now.
 
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D

Deleted member 1030

fincon said:
I used to be a fan of UBI; I'm less supportive of it since I did some reading on it. Though, this is one where I think there are strong arguments on both sides, and no conclusive ones on either.

My main problem is what happens to those who 'need' additional income? For example, if everyone gets £x as a basic minimum income, then does that mean that two people who live in identical homes, but one's severely disabled and requires care/equipment... do they get the same? If you say, no, the second should get an additional amount.. then that's no longer Universal Basic Income.

What about geographical differences? Does someone living in Glasgow where rents are relatively cheaper get the same as someone living in North London?

How about local government community charges, which are different from city to city?

There are similar questions, all of which come down to: unless everyone has the same basic things in their lives (rent, food costs, taxes) either everyone gets the same basic minimum and SOME people get 'more' for nothing, OR some people get additional means tested benefits... which is what we (in theory) have now.
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Great post @fincon (y)
This is the thing - I think it's a great idea in theory, I'm just not sure quite how it would work.
 
Lovernotfighter

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I've read up on this a few times over the years and I'm supportive of the core idea of UBI but most versions put forward by people are overly simplistic, mainly because there are those that would require extra income (and not able to work) so would still need some form of welfare payment. The arguement that it disincentives work I think is pretty silly one as working would always increase your income, something that isn't true with welfare systems, though it may encourage people to work fewer hours but even that may have benefits as a well rested workforce tends to be more productive and you'd probably have the effect of increasing overall employment (i.e. 120 man hours could instead being split between 3 workers working a 40 hour week, spilt before 4 doing 30 hour weeks), then of course they are other benefits for society of having people with time on they hands.

All being said I'm supportive of the idea and an element universality is needed in any welfare system to create the "we all pay in, we all get out the only question is the amounts" effect.
 
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Therapon

Therapon

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Like communism, great in theory but I can't see it working in reality. Bit like the phrase "Let them eat cake", if it was ever said it shows a complete lack of understanding of the real world and the issues people have to face on a daily basis. Yeah I'm a cynic
 
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Therapon

Therapon

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The phrase if correct was let them eat brioche which was unaffordable to the majority of the population. UBI would either be unaffordable to the country or payments so low people wouldn't be able to live on the money provided. I suspect the latter would be the result. Whilst I'm no supporter of those who milk the system there are plenty of genuine hardship cases and you simply cannot provide a one piece fits all system to cater for this.
 
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Baldrick

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Never gonna happen anytime soon in this country. The politicians will never change the status quo whilst the general populace continue to comply with the current system.

As has been said above people's needs are different to others and different geographical locations are more expensive to live in than others so it seems daft to give money to people that don't need it.

Perhaps a better idea is to give people a bigger incentive to work.

I would welcome abolishing the monetary system and maybe people could concentrate on advancing the human race as a unity rather than every family working for their own financial gain/survival. It won't happen in our lifetime though unless there was some kind of planetwide disaster.

I best leave it at that before I start waffling anymore nonesense :D

B x
 
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M

meet_the_fockers

The_Bibas said:
Hopefully. XxxBibaxxX
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Baldricknkaz said:
Never gonna happen anytime soon in this country. The politicians will never change the status quo whilst the general populace continue to comply with the current system.

As has been said above people's needs are different to others and different geographical locations are more expensive to live in than others so it seems daft to give money to people that don't need it.

Perhaps a better idea is to give people a bigger incentive to work.

I would welcome abolishing the monetary system and maybe people could concentrate on advancing the human race as a unity rather than every family working for their own financial gain/survival. It won't happen in our lifetime though unless there was some kind of planetwide disaster.

I best leave it at that before I start waffling anymore nonesense :D

B x
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Yes i thinkso too.. :D
Blue waffle theres ones for google ;)
 
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